- michael barbaro
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From The New York Times, I'yard Michael Barbaro. This is "The Daily."
- [music]
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Today: The Supreme Court issues its first major ruling on abortion since President Trump appointed a bourgeois majority. Adam Liptak on what the conclusion tells the states about the courtroom and its principal justice.
It's Tuesday, June xxx.
- adam liptak
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I'm starting a recording.
- michael barbaro
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Oh, gorgeous. Give thanks you for doing that. Nosotros were all merely joking if information technology's a Mon in June, it's Adam Liptak fourth dimension.
- adam liptak
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Yes. Once in a while, the spotlight swings my fashion.
- michael barbaro
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A lot of the time, in June, every yr. And so Adam, tell united states near this latest Supreme Courtroom ruling on Monday.
- adam liptak
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Nosotros got a big abortion case and a somewhat surprising abortion case. The court struck downward a Louisiana abortion restriction constabulary that would have made it much harder for women in that country to get abortions. And the detail law at issue was about admitting privileges — about whether doctors who provide abortions accept to have admitting privileges at nearby hospitals.
- michael barbaro
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Right. And Adam, we have talked nigh admitting privileges for doctors who performed abortions in the past. But as a reminder, what is the idea backside them?
- adam liptak
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It's a kind of concern relationship between a physician and a hospital. Information technology allows doctors to acknowledge and intendance for their patients at given hospitals. Supporters of admitting privileges laws say that it's a kind of credentialing part, that you are likely to be a slightly improve doc if a nearby hospital kind of vouches for you by giving yous admitting privileges. Opponents of admitting privileges laws say they're a bit of a scam, that abortion is very safe. If yous do have to become to a hospital, they say yous're going to exist admitted, whether you have a doctor with albeit privileges or not.
- michael barbaro
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Mm-hmm. So the Supreme Court on Monday sided with skeptics of this police who saw it equally what you but described, as a kind of fake — something that, in applied terms, was a mode to restrict abortion, not make abortion safer past giving the doctors who perform information technology a formal relationship to a hospital.
- adam liptak
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Aye, the court basically says it doesn't provide any benefits. And it imposes enormous costs on the power of women to accept access to their ramble right to abortion.
- michael barbaro
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Mm-hmm. You know, on the surface, Adam, this case doesn't seem all that legally complicated, if I know my Supreme Court history well from talking to you for at present three years. Which is that fourth dimension and time again, the Supreme Court has ruled that states cannot place an undue burden on a woman's correct to have an abortion. And a law similar this in Louisiana would seem to place a significant burden on a adult female's ability to take an abortion.
- adam liptak
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Well, there's a expert reason to think that, Michael. Because the Supreme Courtroom in 2016, in a instance involving the identical police force but in Texas, said exactly that — said that that Texas constabulary did impose an undue brunt, and it struck down the law. Ii things fabricated opponents of abortion hopeful that the courtroom would come to a different conclusion merely four years later on. President Trump has appointed a couple of justices. And President Trump has said he'due south committing to appointing justices who will do away with abortion rights and overrule Roe v. Wade, the 1973 decision that established the constitutional right to abortion. And nosotros also knew that Chief Justice Roberts, in the Texas case, had dissented. He was prepared to uphold this very aforementioned law in the Texas setting.
And so the surprise on Monday was that the chief justice, as information technology were, switched sides. That's a fleck of an overstatement. But he said, mind, we take a precedent. The dominion of law requires us to uphold precedent, except for very good reasons. And here, even though I'd gone the other manner in 2016, I'm going to live with that precedent today and vote with the four more liberal members of the court to strike down the Louisiana constabulary.
- michael barbaro
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So Master Justice Roberts is saying, even though I didn't agree with a very similar case a few years ago, I am bound past the precedent that that ruling I disagree with created for the Louisiana law.
- adam liptak
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Exactly right. So here's what the master justice said: I joined the dissent in the Texas case, and continue to believe the instance was wrongly decided. The question today, however, is not whether that Texas case was right or wrong, but whether to adhere to information technology in deciding the present case.
- michael barbaro
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Hm. And then in that location's something a little bit grudging about this.
- adam liptak
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Yeah, I suppose grudging is one give-and-take for it. Some other is principled. You know, this is a master justice who'due south deeply concerned about the institutional integrity of the Supreme Courtroom, doesn't want to have information technology seen as a political body that changes positions depending on changes in personnel. So it may well exist that he wasn't happy to find himself in this position. Just at the aforementioned time, he might have been sending an important message about the court.
- michael barbaro
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Only of course, non every justice voted that way. So Adam, help me empathize the thinking of the conservative justices who dissented in this instance and disagreed with Roberts that the Texas case created a binding precedent that should be applied to the Louisiana law.
- adam liptak
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Yeah, and then everybody agrees, everybody on both sides agrees that this is the aforementioned law. It has the same words. Merely the dissenters say Louisiana is different from Texas. The evidence in the example was different. The nature of the state is different. And so Justice Samuel Alito, serving the evidence in the Louisiana instance, says, at least in that case, quote, "There is ample prove in the record showing that albeit privileges helped to protect the health of women by ensuring that physicians who perform abortions meet higher standards of competence than is shown by the mere possession of a license to do."
So Alito is saying that in Louisiana, this makes a difference. And the evidence in the record, he says, shows that information technology makes a divergence.
- michael barbaro
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Mm-hmm. I hateful, does that represent a disregard for precedent in your mind? Because I recollect the hearings for almost each and every one of these bourgeois justices. And they were all asked over the by decade or so almost the role of precedent. And I'm thinking back in particular to two of the conservative justices who dissented in this case — Neil Gorsuch, Brett Kavanaugh. And both of them were specifically asked by Senate Democrats during confirmation hearings about the role of precedent when it came to abortion. And here they seem to be saying that the precedent doesn't employ.
- adam liptak
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Aye, then I approximate I want to end at the very beginning of that analysis, Michael. I don't think they're quite saying that. I mean, I call back that's the music of the decision. But actually, what they're saying is nosotros tin can live with the precedent, just we're good lawyers. And nosotros'll distinguish that precedent. And when nosotros employ information technology to a different set up of facts in a different land, we're going to come to a unlike conclusion.
- michael barbaro
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Got information technology. I'm curious what the applied implications of this ruling are on the ground, pretty much across the country, now the court has ruled that the Louisiana police force is unconstitutional.
- adam liptak
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It would seem to dominion out this particular kind of abortion restriction. Now that Texas has lost and Louisiana has lost, we're non going to come across states enacting admitting privileges restrictions, although creative opponents of abortion rights volition find other ways to try to restrict the procedure.
- michael barbaro
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Mm-hmm. But this particular make of restriction is now probably going to get away.
- adam liptak
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You would think and so.
- michael barbaro
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And what well-nigh in Louisiana, where this case originated?
- adam liptak
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Well, what would accept been really striking in Louisiana is what would have happened if the case went the other way. Louisiana currently has three ballgame clinics. That would take gone to ane. And information technology currently has near five doctors who are willing to provide abortion. And that likewise would obviously accept gone to one. So it would take required every woman in the state to travel to New Orleans to become abortions. And information technology's not clear that that clinic would accept had the chapters to serve those women, even if they could make what, in some instances, would be a very long drive — five hours each way — and do information technology twice. Because Louisiana also has a police requiring a waiting period between the initial consultation and the procedure itself.
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So I mean, nosotros start with this law that sounds kind of basic, standard, unexceptional. The doctors should have admitting privileges.
But information technology turns out that when you drill downward, it'south a vastly consequential brake on abortion rights.
- michael barbaro
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We'll exist correct back.
Adam, we are at present well into a series of very consequential rulings in a term that yous have described as the well-nigh consequential since a bourgeois bulk arrived on the court under President Trump. So how does this abortion ruling fit into the emerging motion picture nosotros have of this conservative majority court?
- adam liptak
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Well, we have a conservative bulk courtroom — and you lot're quite right to say that'south what it is — delivering in the space of two weeks 3 big liberal victories: on job protections for L.Thousand.B.T.Q. workers, on protection from deportation for young immigrants known as Dreamers, and now this abortion case. Then we have a court that is full of surprises.
- michael barbaro
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Correct. And in each case, it was a member of the conservative majority that proved decisive.
- adam liptak
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Right. Well, it sort of can't be otherwise. Considering it'southward a 5-4 court with the four liberals in the minority. And so they have to selection upwardly at least one conservative justice to prevail.
Then in the employment discrimination case, they picked up non merely the principal justice, but too Justice Gorsuch — one of the Trump appointees — who actually wrote the bulk decision. In the Dreamers case, the DACA case, they picked up Chief Justice John Roberts, who wrote the majority stance. And now in the abortion case, they over again picked up Chief Justice John Roberts, who voted with the bulk but didn't bring together its reasoning.
- michael barbaro
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I'thou curious why this keeps happening — that the liberal wing of the court keeps picking upwardly these bourgeois justices. And the reason I enquire this is because we have talked so many times with y'all, Adam, and with our colleagues near the intense vetting procedure that has led to conservative justices making it into the pipeline for the Supreme Courtroom, getting picked and so confirmed. And my sense is that the conservative legal apparatus is extremely careful near this vetting process. And it expects these judges — and tell me if I'm oversimplifying — to vote consistently and conservatively. And yet.
- adam liptak
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Then yous're right, Michael. Information technology'southward extraordinary. The bourgeois legal movement has put so much energy into identifying people they can count on, who will vote the way they want. And the vetting process is intense. And the reason the confirmation battles are so heated is because people on both sides are convinced that one time 1 of these people gets on the court, they volition vote in a right-wing direction. Just it turns out that if yous put a serious estimate on the Supreme Court and give him or her life tenure, they are going to follow their judicial commitments, sometimes in directions that aren't political, simply are legal. So in these three cases, they're all different, but they all arrange to jurisprudential commitments of the justices who voted that way. So in the employment discrimination case, Justice Gorsuch thinks the law only means what information technology says. And he couldn't get abroad from that. And that's a conservative idea. In the DACA case, Chief Justice Roberts thought the Trump administration just hadn't offered an adequate reason for winding downwardly the program. That'south likewise a conservative idea. And then in this latest case, the abortion instance, Chief Justice Roberts said, listen, we have a precedent on bespeak. We're supposed to follow precedent. That'southward basically a conservative thought.
So depending on how you lot think about these cases, they may be politically liberal, but in an important sense, judicially conservative.
- michael barbaro
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I have to imagine that the greatest disappointment for this right-fly legal apparatus that y'all described is with Justice Roberts. Because he has been the most consistent swing vote to swing over to the liberals. And I hear you merely maxim that he's coming upwardly with a bourgeois legal rationale in each conclusion. Only I accept to imagine this pattern is complicating his reputation with the people who supported his nomination.
- adam liptak
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Oh, that's mode an understatement.
- archived recording (tom cotton fiber)
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Master Justice Roberts consistently seems more concerned about the reputation of the court and his reputation amidst Democrats and the media than the rule of constabulary.
- adam liptak
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The correct-wing — the conservative legal move, Senator Ted Cruz, Senator Tom Cotton wool — are furious with John Roberts.
- archived recording (tom cotton)
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I would recommend that he resign and travel to Iowa for the caucuses and see if he can earn the votes of his beau Americans.
- adam liptak
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I mean, maybe they could forgive him his 2 votes for upholding the Affordable Care Act. Peradventure they could forgive him in the census case for not letting the Trump administration add a question on citizenship.
- archived recording (ted cruz)
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Judging is non a game. Just sadly, over recent years, more and more than Main Justice Roberts has been playing games.
- adam liptak
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Just to come up to three liberal conclusions in the space of two weeks, in iii unlike blockbuster cases, is a bitter, bitter pill for them to consume.
- michael barbaro
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Mm. And they're saying so.
- adam liptak
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Certain. But here'south the thing, Michael. Roberts, in moving to the center of the court, has become the most powerful chief justice since at least 1937.
- michael barbaro
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Wow.
- adam liptak
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The idea of both being the chief justice and the swing justice, equally information technology were, is virtually unheard of. But what you have in Primary Justice Roberts is someone who'south been in the majority 98 per centum of the time so far this term.
- michael barbaro
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Wow.
- adam liptak
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And he'due south been in the majority in every 5-iv decision then far, which looks like it volition set a record for a chief justice if it lasts through the end of the term.
- michael barbaro
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Hm. So maybe he has alienated the right, but he has amassed a tremendous amount of influence every bit a justice on this court.
- adam liptak
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Yes. I hateful, people talk about the Roberts courtroom because you lot ever talk nearly the court past the name of the chief justice. Just this is really the Roberts courtroom in a second sense, also, that John Roberts is driving this train.
- michael barbaro
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You established a narrative for u.s.a. nigh a twelvemonth ago, Adam, around this question of John Roberts. And y'all accurately predicted he might terminate upward being a swing vote on a question like abortion. And when we have talked nigh him, you said that he prizes the reputation of the Supreme Court as a nonpartisan establishment, and that he might prize that reputation to a higher place his own, kind of the most natural, legal instincts. Is that what you think may be at play here? Or is information technology possible that we but didn't quite understand his legal instincts the entire fourth dimension?
- adam liptak
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I call back a big part of what explains this is what John Roberts goes effectually proverb all the time and nobody takes seriously.
- archived recording (chief justice john g. roberts jr.)
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[Adulation] Thank you very much. Thank y'all.
- adam liptak
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That the court is not a political institution —
- archived recording (chief justice john 1000. roberts jr.)
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We practice non speak for the people. But we speak for the Constitution. Our role is very clear.
- adam liptak
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And I think he'southward demonstrating that commitment — that these are not sort of empty civics lesson statements that he makes in his public comments, but that he is authentically committed to them.
- archived recording (chief justice john thou. roberts jr.)
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Nosotros practice not sit on opposite sides of an aisle. Nosotros practice not caucus in separate rooms. We do not serve one party or one involvement. Nosotros serve one nation. And I want to clinch all of you that we will continue to do that to the best of our abilities, whether times are at-home or contentious. Thanks very much. [Adulation]
- adam liptak
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I think he earnestly believes in the legal conclusions he'south drawn. Merely at to the lowest degree incidentally, it helps maintain the institutional prestige, authority, legitimacy of the Supreme Court if it doesn't break along anticipated ideological lines.
- michael barbaro
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Mm-hmm. Then in a way, he's beingness the change he wants to run into, which does fit with who he is, simply may also stretch who he is.
- adam liptak
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Yep, OK.
- michael barbaro
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[LAUGHS] Adam, it feels like from everything you're saying virtually Principal Justice John Roberts that nosotros may exist getting an respond to the biggest question of all, about how he may rule, which is on any kind of claiming to Roe v. Wade. Considering the rulings of the past couple weeks, and especially the ruling on the Louisiana law, suggest that he favors precedent, does non want to polarize the land. And collectively, that would all suggest — tell me if I'm incorrect hither — that he would be inclined to support the precedent that is Roe v. Wade if it is challenged.
- adam liptak
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Well, and so I think we have some substantial prove for that proffer in today's ruling. He took precedent very seriously in an abortion case. Only it's not as though John Roberts has never voted to overrule precedent. He voted to overrule precedent in Citizens United and in other cases. And he set out a adequately elaborate set of principles for when precedents can exist overruled. And it's non clear to me that just because he idea this one precedent, which is footling in comparing to the abortion rights itself in Roe, will requite yous the answer of how we will treat Roe. Then I wouldn't count any chickens here. Just there is more prove Monday than at that place was last calendar week that the principal justice takes precedent quite seriously.
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- michael barbaro
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Well, Adam, thank you very much. We appreciate it.
- adam liptak
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Aye, thanks.
- michael barbaro
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On Monday evening, both the White House and President Trump's campaign issued statements denouncing the Supreme Court's ruling on abortion. Without naming him, the statement from the campaign appeared to criticize Main Justice Roberts, saying, quote, "5 unelected Supreme Court justices decided to insert their political agenda in identify of democratically determined policies."
We'll exist right back.
Here's what else you demand to know today. Global deaths from the coronavirus have now surpassed 500,000, prompting a new moving ridge of restrictions. China imposed a strict lockdown on nearly half a 1000000 people in a canton southward of Beijing in an effort to contain an outbreak there that is challenging the country's claim to have beaten back the virus. In the U.South., several states moved to delay reopenings.
- archived recording (phil tater)
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We must hitting pause on the resumption of indoor dining.
- michael barbaro
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In New Jersey, Governor Phil Irish potato scrapped a program to open restaurants for limited indoor dining later this week, saying it posed as well great a take chances.
- archived recording (phil murphy)
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Given the current situation in numerous other states, nosotros do non believe it is prudent at this time to button forward with what is, in effect, a sedentary indoor activity, particularly when we know that this virus moves differently indoors than out, making it even more deadly.
- michael barbaro
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And The Times reports that intelligence officials gave President Trump a written briefing months agone, laying out their conclusion that Russian federation offered and paid out bounties to militants in Afghanistan to kill U.S. and coalition troops in that location. So far, Trump has denied ever beingness briefed on the Russian bounties. But the intelligence has provoked a furor, because the Russian bounties may be linked to the death of iii U.S. Marines in Afghanistan, and because the White House has non authorized whatever response.
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That'due south it for "The Daily." I'm Michael Barbaro. See you lot tomorrow.
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